Protect and Defend

Welcome to my blog, Protect and Defend. You don’t have to understand me. You only have to agree with me. I can live with losing the good fight, but I can not live with not fighting that good fight at all. - Publius

Saturday, September 02, 2006

Thank You

I wanted to thank you all who participated in my previous post which I considered a small social experiment. Knowing full well that most of the posts that I was going to receive were not going to be from conservatives but still knowing who reads this little site, I wanted to see what the reaction to the story would be, I will explain in a second.

First, good job to those of you who said they would join some group if Islam was not available. From the article: “And for Western youths, taking up Islam can also serve as an outlet for rebellion. A majority of converts, especially in Western Europe, are in their late teens or 20s” (Time, August 28, 2006, p.37). And from “Farhad Khosrokhavar, a Paris professor and the author of several books on Muslim extremism. ‘Previously – say, 20 years ago – they may have chosen communism or gone to leftist ideologies. Now Islam is the religion of those who fight against imperialism, who are treated unjustly by the arrogant Western societies and so on’” (Time, August 28, 2006, p.37). Another reason given is because of the relative ease to convert to Islam as compared to Judaism or Catholicism which can take years of study and preparation. “In Islam, the process is called reversion (because islam literally means “submission to God,”
Believers hold that everyone is born Muslim), and it’s mainly a matter of uttering a two-line declaration of faith, the Shahadah. Say the Shahadah aloud in Arabic, and the conversion is complete” (Time, August 28, 2006, p.37).
So you all were correct that these converts would have most likely joined some radical group if Islam was not available, but that it is and because it is so easy to convert, there are some who have made the religious conversion.

And now for the reaction that the post received. If you read again, Time magazine says the most common reason for conversion to Islam as the “increasingly secular world in which society’s rules get looser by the day” (Time, August 28, 2006, p.37). There are two parts to this, both a more “secular world” and a society where the “rules get looser by the day.” Everyone who commented on me saying “So for those of you against “Under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance, or against school prayer, or against nativity scenes, or against posting the 10 Commandments in schools or public buildings, or against Christmas Trees in public areas,” jumped on this as some sort of radical Christian ideology that could be equated to a radical Islamic ideology. But, how many of you are really against “Under God” and want it removed from the Pledge of Allegiance? How many of you are against the freedom of expression of school prayer if not required by the schools and instead prevented by after school clubs, by sports teams before games, or at graduations? How many of you would protest a nativity scene? How many of you believe there is no value in teaching the morality included in the 10 Commandments? Yes, you may disagree with teaching the first 3 Commandments, but what about the rest? And how many of you are offended by an evergreen tree raised in a public area in December, covered in lights and decorations, and than called a Christmas tree?

But more importantly, you all ignored “or for those of you for legalizing drugs and prostitution, or for those of you for easing restrictions on pornography, think about what you are doing.” This is where I attacked a society where the “rules get looser by the day.” How many of you are for any of these activities? And yet, it was as if you forgot about this part, or ignored it, or only saw what you wanted to see.

The problem here, and it is something that I am guilty of as well, was that you threw the baby out with the bathwater. By finding one part you disagreed with you dismissed the entire argument.

And for the examples:
Rogue Mariner said... So by not falling rank and file with Christianity, I'm letting the terrorists win. That's great. So when do we just go ahead and throw Freedom of Religion out?
quakerdave said... So, if I'm not with you, I'm with "the terrorists"? Well, smack me down and call me Ali-Akbar, I guess. Fundamentalism, no matter in whose name it's practiced, is inherently wrong.
Alec said...
Sooooooo...from your post, I retain the following: 4) Therefore, we should adopt the practices of our enemy, albeit with a slightly different creed and a slightly better PR job, to beat our enemy. Or, you know, we could just realize that the core of the problem is religious fundamentalism, and work to stamp it out wherever it rears its ugly head. And yes, even when it is guised in the clothing of Marxism or similar "comprehensive" worldviews.

Brooke was the only one who seemed to find meaning in the post rather than dismiss it:

Brooke said... I think these guys would've found something nasty to get into no matter what.... But Islam DID afford them the opportunity to do evil in this case!

Thank you for taking part. I hope you see the intentions of both posts. I was hoping for more input for more views, but I guess I am just not all that popular. The purpose of this was to show that just because you might disagree with part of something does not mean it is all wrong. An anything goes society is just as dangerous and just as much of a breeding ground for terrorists, rebellious youths, and radical fundamentalism regardless of ideology.

7 Comments:

Blogger Bobkatt said...

Pub, let not your heart be troubled. We still love ya. It would seem that what 3 of these converts had in common were that they were young and very troubled. Just like a child molester will "groom his victim", these radical Islam leaders probably seek out these troubled kids and slowly bring them along telling them what they want to hear, feeding on their frustrations and anti-social behaviors.
While most of those surveyed stated that they converted because of the “increasingly secular world in which society’s rules get looser by the day” I believe it is much more complicated than that. There are plenty of countries that are more secular and decadant than the U.S. and most of these converts led a much more decadent life style than you point out. See below. Also I don't think they would be anymore endeared to us if we were all of a sudden a Puritan nation. I think mostly they are caught in a perpetual struggle between wanting the advantages of the 21st. century without paying the price for it. Without admitting that they have to go along to get along. In order to be productive in the world you have to teach more than the Koran. Also we are dealing with centuries old hatred especially toward the Jews and anyone that helps them. When we say that Israel should not try to speed up the ceasefire in Lebanon we don't come across as very benevolent to the innocent family that was blown up. Plus we provided the bomb. We are in a no-win situation. We can never hope to have peace unless these countries change their entire structure. They have to have a reason to build themselves up instead of blow things up. We have to stop trying to do the impossible and start doing what we can to develope alternative fuels and get out of there.
Richard Reid, he is the son of an English mother and a Jamaican father, who spent most of Richard's childhood years in prison. Reid became involved in street crime and spent time in a number of prisons, including Feltham Young Offenders' Institution, where he converted to Islam .
Jose Padilla was born in Brooklyn, New York and became a member of the Latin Kings street gang after moving to Chicago, Illinois, and being arrested several times. He was convicted of aggravated assault . After serving his last jail sentence, he converted to Islam and professed a nonviolent philosophy..
Germaine Lindsay. Juliet, 26, first met Lindsay - known to her as G - five years ago outside a row of shops in Harp Inge, Dalton. He was just 14 at the time and a student at Rawthorpe High School. She said: "He used to hang around and when I was going there to score one day he asked me to get my drugs off him. "I used to get heroin and crack cocaine off him every day for about two years. "I saw him change a lot in the last year I was scoring. "He was always going on about racism. "He thought all white people were trash and said he was going to get them all on drugs to kill them off. Juliet, formerly of Rawthorpe, said Lindsay also became more aggressive as time went on. She said: "He started getting arrogant and snapping at anything. "He once badly beat up someone I knew for just a fiver. "He looked down his nose at everybody.
Please excuse this long rambling post but I felt bad that no one had replied. While I agree with you on the general tone of your comments about God, nativity scenes and Christmas trees, I feel it is an attack on everything traditional. It seems to come from all angles at once. To me it's kind of like an attack on everything I stand for.

Sat Sep 02, 06:53:00 AM  
Blogger Rogue Mariner said...

OH, it was a test. I hate tests. As I was the first to hop on, I'll go ahead and say that I probably focused more on religion as it was presented first, and once I get going on one topic, well, it's kind of hard to switch gears. So, drugs are bad, hookers are nasty, and some rules are good.

Sat Sep 02, 01:56:00 PM  
Blogger Brooke said...

I passed? Whoo-hoo! ;)

Sat Sep 02, 01:59:00 PM  
Blogger Alec said...

Oh please. Your post blamed secular society for breeding terrorists. To quote:

"And why do these men convert to Islam? Time magazine says the most common reason for conversion to Islam as the “increasingly secular world in which society’s rules get looser by the day” (Time, August 28, 2006, p.37).

So for those of you against “Under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance, or against school prayer, or against nativity scenes, or against posting the 10 Commandments in schools or public buildings, or against Christmas Trees in public areas, or for those of you for legalizing drugs and prostitution, or for those of you for easing restrictions on pornography, think about what you are doing. A secular country will breed more terrorists, and a country with an anything goes attitude will breed more terrorists, and both will make us all a lot less safe."

You simply made a very bad argument. Now it has become a "social experiment." Whatever.

The problem with your argument, or with paying attention to a sensationalist argument from Time, is that you are overly concerned about the feelings of terrorists. This is ironic, because you are a conservative, but you are manipulating their statements for your own political agenda. Similar arguments are made in other areas, and they are always bad. For instance, the argument that a gay bashing was "incited" by the victim making a pass at the perpetrator. Or the argument that by having drinks at home alone with a man, a woman "invited" a rape. No. What prompts terrorism is interesting on an academic level, but I am not interested in playing by their rules when it comes to policy.

You said:

"But more importantly, you all ignored “or for those of you for legalizing drugs and prostitution, or for those of you for easing restrictions on pornography, think about what you are doing.” This is where I attacked a society where the “rules get looser by the day.” How many of you are for any of these activities?"

Depends on what you mean by "for" those activities. I detest gambling, but I do not see any need to criminalize it. I think pornography is fine, as long as it involves consenting adults. And as for drugs, I do not recommend them, but I do not believe the government has any business regulating what people choose to put in their own bodies.
These are all victimless crimes. Yes, obviously others can be "affected" by, say, a loved one's use of drugs, but so what? People are affected by the presence of alcoholics, smokers and gamblers. People are "affected" by a family member or friend converting to a different religion, marrying outside of their race, etc. I could go on. The point is that in these situations, the concerns of others are simply irrelevant(including the nebulous "community").

So it boils down to this, I guess: You care about the feelings of the terrorist, I do not. You would change our society to appease them, I would not.

Sun Sep 03, 03:33:00 PM  
Blogger betmo said...

pulius honey- it is all about spending more time than you have on the computer and on your blog- you are popular in your own circle. you haven't spent any time trotting around marketing yourself. that's all :)

Sun Sep 03, 10:40:00 PM  
Blogger Publius said...

Bobkatt, thank you for the post. I agree with your words. These people would have found something to join that most likely would not have been productive. But the fact that they joined Islam led them to decide to kill as many innocents as possible, and herein lies the problem. The quote from Lindsay was especially troubling, "He thought all white people were trash and said he was going to get them all on drugs to kill them off.” I think this is the feeling of many of those in Islam where their religion teaches them that white people who are generally Christian or Jewish are infidels and trash and do not deserve to live, and yet they come to Europe, the US, Canada, and Australia and try to kill innocent people.
Rogue, it is ok, I just wanted to see how many people would ignore the parts they agreed with and only focus on the parts they wanted to see.

Alec, you are correct, this was more than a social experiment, because I also agreed with everything that I said. But here is where you are wrong, I don’t think we need to change our society to prevent more people from converting to Islam to become terrorists, instead I am warning that IF WE DO change our society that it WILL LEAD to more terrorists. We have not taken “Under God” out of the Pledge, some areas are fighting to retain the right to school prayer and we do allow private religious schools to practice school prayer, there are still public officials and teachers who will post the 10 Commandments in public areas as a reminder of the morality of God and of the teachings of the Bible, when Boston tried to rename their Christmas Tree and Holiday Tree there were many who complained and they changed the name, we do not have a legalization of drugs that you find in many European countries and we never should, only the state of Nevada allows legalized prostitution and only in select areas, and considering how easy it is to watch pornographic material on the Internet or on cable TV, the restrictions on pornography are already too loose. No, we don’t need to change our society, we simply need to not let people try to change our society anymore to being more secular or looser with restrictions our social ills. Even here you only read what you wanted to read, pornography is more than an activity participated in by two consenting adults, or do you think everyone who watches porn on the internet is a consenting adult and that the warnings about only clicking here if you are at least 18 stop those under 18 from seeing material that is often to vile as to corrupt young and old minds alike. So no, I don’t care about the feelings of terrorists, instead what I am saying is that if we change our society to a more liberal progressive European society what we will have is the mess that Europe is now experiencing and a mess that may ultimately signal their doom.

Mon Sep 04, 12:04:00 AM  
Blogger Publius said...

Betmo, thank you for the kind words; I thought it deserved a separate post.

Mon Sep 04, 12:50:00 AM  

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